WIANEWS - JANUARY 27 - VK NATIONAL NEWS
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THE BEST NEWS YOU'LL GET ALL WEEK
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WIANEWS WEEK COMMENCING JANUARY 27 2013.
This week's broadcast comes from REAST in Hobart.
Frank VK7FINF
Angela VK7FPAA
Allan VK7KAJ
Scott VK7HVK
Warren VK7FEET
Graham VK7ZGK
Justin VK7TW
THESE STORIES AND MORE IN THIS EDITION OF NEWS FROM THE WIRELESS INSTITUTE
OF AUSTRALIA FOR WEEK COMMENCING JAN 27 2013.
Last week the WIA was asked to provide urgent supporting technical
information to its recent submissions to the NSW Planning System Review
Proposed changes to State-wide Streamlined Approvals Code. On the wia.org.au
site you will find an attached document "Amateur Radio Antenna Masts -
Information for NSW Planning & Infrastructure", written for the WIA by
Roger Harrison VK2ZRH, at very short notice.
Here now is Roger:-
"Well - it seems that our campaign to have the NSW Planning department
include provisions for amateur radio masts and antennas in the planning
laws currently being revised has had some effect.
The NSW Minister for Planning and Infrastructure, the honourable Brad Hazzard
MP, has asked the Planning department to - quote - pay particular attention
to this issue in finalising the State Environmental Planning Policy amendment
- end quote.
How do I know that ? Well, late in November I wrote to my local member about
my disappointment that exemptions for antenna masts for amateur radio use
will not be considered in the current Planning System Review, despite many
submissions to the Review over the past year. My local member subsequently
acknowledged my letter, saying that he asked the Planning Minister for advice
on the subject.
On Tuesday last, 22nd January, I received a letter from my local member
enclosing a response to him from the Minister for Planning. After
acknowledging the valuable work performed by amateurs during natural
disasters and other emergencies when traditional infrastructure fails, the
Minister's letter went on to explain that the current State Environmental
Planning Policy - Exempt and Complying Development Codes (or SEPP) - allows
antennas and aerials to be erected on most lots in NSW to a height of 1.8
metres above the highest point of the roof on a dwelling - ". . . this
includes antennas which may be erected at ground level, such as those used by
amateur radio operators. In situations where there is a two storey dwelling,
this allows for the erection of an antenna that is around 10 metres high."
So, I guess we're expected to live in two storey McMansions . . . All those
submissions you sent in should have made it abundantly clear that that 1.8
metre limit didn't cut it for amateur radio.
The Minister went on to say that - quote - amateur radio operators raised
concerns regarding the Codes SEPP and the ability to erect radio masts and
antenna. Each submission is currently being reviewed and I have asked the
Department to pay particular attention to this issue in finalizing the SEPP
amendment.
If you wrote to your local member, you may have received a letter from the
Minister to your local member along the same lines.
The Institute wrote to the Planning department in November, seeking a meeting
to discuss the issue of amateur radio masts before the new regulations were
set in stone.
The Planning department replied in December, saying that as they were
reviewing submissions to the draft Codes SEPP, they thought there was limited
value in discussing the issue at this stage.
However, the department's reply to President Phil Wait VK2ASD revealed that,
of the 200 submissions received on the draft Codes SEPP, over 40 were from
radio amateurs !! That effort made amateur radio operators the largest single
group of respondents out of those from local councils, town planners,
architects, developers, businesses, community groups, uncle Tom Cobley and
all.
The department's letter to the Institute included the name and number of an
officer to contact to discuss our concerns.
The week before last, President Phil Wait called the contact officer and had
a chat. The officer invited the Institute to provide technical reasons why
radio amateurs wanted masts and antennas of 10 metres or 15 metres and to set
out arguments and requirements supporting the case. And to submit it within
days.
Phil briefed me on his discussion with the planning officer and asked me to
put something together. The submission and a covering letter were completed
and submitted on Monday 21st January. They were posted on wia.org.au
the same day - thank you Robert Broomhead VK3DN.
If you're unhappy about something; if you want to change things: it pays to
make yourself heard.
Are we there yet ? Well, no. But keep your fingers crossed.
I must congratulate and thank everyone - individual amateurs and radio clubs
alike - who went to the effort of making a submission during all the phases
of the Planning System Review and also writing to your local members. I
exhorted you to GET CRACKING, and you did.
I would also like to acknowledge the assistance of Jim Linton VK3PC who
provided some valuable background material when I embarked on this saga.
The annual Great Gathering of hams - the Wyong Field Day - is but four weeks
away, where we can compare letters we've received about radio masts from our
local members and the Minister for Planning. Do they all sing from the same
song sheet ?
The Wyong Field Day promoters have exhorted us all to "be there or be square!"
(submitted by roger vk2zrh)
FreeDV broadcast
Following the successful relay of the VK1WI and the AARNSW morning broadcast,
using the new FreeDV digital voice mode on 40 metres a second test is now
planned.
Tonight's broadcast, Sunday the 27th of January, will be relayed, once again
from the Central Coast by Ed, VK2JI using the FreeDV mode however this will
be on a different frequency. As many of the spots below 7.2MHz are taken up
by nets and general SSB usage, this trial will be sent on 7.240MHz
LSBFreeDV plus or minus QRM from the broadcast stations.
Ed hopes to find a small channel between the commercial stations.
Reports of the transmission are very welcome and should be posted to the
digitalvoice (all one word) Google group list.
For those who wish to try to receive the test transmission and have the audio
from their rig connected to a PC for RTTY or PSK etc. all that is needed is
the free software from www.freedv.org
(SOURCED TO VK2WI NEWS)
WIA BOARD TALK
President Phil Wait VK2ASD vk2asd@wia.org.au
Vice President Chris Platt VK5CP vk5cp@wia.org.au
Secretary David Williams VK3RU vk3ru@wia.org.au
Treasurer John Longayroux VK3PZ vk3pz@wia.org.au
Socialise - 27 January 2013
Have you prepared for the last weekend in May; the 2013 WIA AGM and
Conference?
Meeting and speaking with fellow Amateurs is a rejuvenating experience that
cements friendships and opens the door to interactions beyond a QSO or a QSL
card. With tours of club facilities and tourist attractions throughout
Fremantle you'll have the opportunity to share your wonder with other
visitors to the state and enjoy the hospitality that VK6 has to offer.
The 2013 WIA AGM and Conference, it's all about Engaging, Learning,
Appreciating, Socializing and Discovering.
You'll find all the information online at the VK6 conference site,
conference.vk6.net
HAMS ACROSS AUSTRALIA.
VK2
web service:- http://www.arnsw.org.au/html/news_vk2wi.htm
VKG Roundup http://www.police.nsw.gov.au/news
ARNSW Anniversary BBQ.
Those who have received their membership badge will have seen included in the
posting an early notification of an Anniversary BBQ which is to be conducted
by ARNSW on Sunday the 10th of March at the Dural site.
Al VK2VEC is collecting names of those who will be attending.
You can email your RSVP to office@arnsw.org.au or telephone 02 9651 1490
Hornsby and Districts Amateur Radio Club is pleased to announce that their
new repeater VK 2 RHT is now on air at Chatswood, operating in both FM
and P25 mode, also known as APCO-25.
It transmits on 438.350 MHz, and has a minus 5.4 MHz offset, meaning users
must transmit on 432.950 MHz
For FM users the repeater requires a 91.5 Hz tone. It also transmits the same
91.5 Hz tone while in FM mode. This will prevent FM users hearing the P25
signals.
For P25 users, the hexadecimal Network Access Code or NAC, is the default 293.
Whilst with HADARC, they set up camp in a park in West Pennant Hills over the
weekend, in a battle of the best with other fanatics across Australia.
The Hornsby And District Amateur Radio Club took part in an annual
Field Day Radio Contest, which tests the readiness of ham radio operators to
provide communications at very short notice and to make as many contacts
with other radio operators throughout NSW.
The Hornsby Advocate reporting this story have a great photo of VK2JCC
Colin Christie at Pennant Hills. About 15 members of the 70-strong club took
to the park for about eight hours on Saturday and VK2JCC said that the group
made good contact with areas as far as Wollongong, South Australia, Tasmania
and Queensland.
ARNSW at its Dural site will be conducting the next Foundation course on
Saturday the 23 March and assessments for all license grades on Sunday 24th.
Prior booking required by email to education@arnsw.org.au or
call 02 9651 1490 and leave contact details.
Candidates need to bring passport photo.
VK3
web service:- http://www.amateurradio.com.au/news/
The Centre Victoria RadioFest
The theme for the biggest Victorian event, held on February the 10th, is
home brewing, with three speakers to touch on the subject, and it includes a
free homebrew competition open to all.
If you are looking for good value, then visit and talk to those in the
dedicated Traders Hall, or the second-hand market place.
A full display of the Elecraft K-line will be on show thanks to Gary Gregory
VK4FD, as well as vintage radio and club displays.
Hot breakfast is available from 8am, access to toilets at 7am, free tea and
coffee all day.
See you at the Centre Victoria RadioFest when the doors open at 10am in two
weeks on Sunday February the 10th.
I'm Barry Robinson VK3PV and you are listening to VK1WIA.
Homebrew and Constructors Group meeting
The next gathering of this group will be at 2pm this Saturday, February the
2nd.
The venue is Amateur Radio Victoria, 40g Victory Boulevard, Ashburton.
It will include a ?show and tell? display of homebrewed gear.
Guest speaker is Peter Cossins VK3BFG. He will present on the evolvement
in Melbourne of slow scan television. All are welcome to attend.
(Jim Linton VK3PC)
EDUCATION YOUTH AND ADVANCEMENT OF AMATEUR RADIO
www.hamcollege.com.au
SILENT KEY
#1 MIXED DXCC JOHN DACK, W7KH (SK)
Monday, January 7, John Dack, W7KH, of Seattle, Washington, passed away.
He was 91.
An ARRL Life Member, Dack sat at the very TOP of the DXCC mixed standings
with 398 entities, including all 340 current entities and 58 deleted entities.
He worked every DXCC entity except Damau Diu (CR8), French Indochina (FI8)
and Manchuria (C9).
South Sudan (ST0) was the last new DX entity in Dack's log;
he worked ST0R in August 2011.
JOHN DACK, W7KH SILENT KEY
INTERNATIONAL NEWS With thanks to IARU, RSGB, SARL, Southgate AR Club, ARRL,
Amateur Radio Newsline, NZART, ARVictoria and the WW sources of the WIA.
LITTLE NIPPER
HMV was founded in 1921 with its first store on London's Oxford Street, its
trademark dog and gramophone image is taken from a 1898 oil painting,
His Master's Voice, which features Nipper the dog listening to an early
gramophone recording.
HMV was at the forefront of music/record sales for years, thru the 2nd
world war singles, microgroove, tape, cassettes, 8 track cartridges
CD's mp3's and it would appear the later, digital downloading of mp3
songs has seen its final demise!
HMV's 239 stores are administration and a 25%-off sale is in full swing
certainly through the UK.
LED LIGHTS JAM CITY BUSES
The Swedish national amateur radio society the S-S-A reports
on a case of LED lights in a shop jamming the VHF radio used
by buses. The lighting in shop windows at a business called
Punkt House jammed the city bus system which uses 167.0375
MHz for communications and dispatch.
The lights causing the problem were LED spotlight lamps. It
was found they did not conform to the regulations on
Electromagnetic Compatibility and they are now being
replaced. The full story in Google English is on-line
at tinyurl.com/LED-VHF-Interference
(Southgate via arnewsline.org)
OPERATIONAL NEWS - DATELINE 2013
VK ROSS HULL MEMORIAL VHF-UHF WRAPPING UP IN A DAY OR SO
AFTER RUNNING ALL JANUARY
ZL Jock White Memorial Field Day Contest Sat and Sun Feb 23 and 24.
WW International Museums Weekends June 15/16 and 22/23
SPECIAL EVENT STATIONS, DX and BEACON AND NET ADVICE
With the coming of more sunspots comes more DX. And when more amateurs
work DX, the ARRL's Membership and Volunteer Programs Department --
especially the DXCC Desk and the ARRL Incoming and Outgoing QSL Bureaus
-- goes into high gear.
"In 2012, we saw an increase in the number of cards received from ARRL
members that were sent to foreign QSL bureaus, as well as the number
of cards we sent out to the bureaus," said Membership and Volunteer Programs
Administrative Manager Sharon Taratula.
"In addition, the number of DXCC applications -- including those for initial
awards and endorsements -- also increased."
(arrl letter)
Members of the 'Buddies in the Caribbean' suitcase
mini-DXpedition group are 'going to Barbados' and will be
active now till February 6th.
All members use Buddipole portable antennas at 100 watts or less.
Several teams will be battery-only, field portable either
from Barbados beaches or from scenic mountain tops and will
sign their own call stroke P.
QSL via Logbook of the world or direct to each operator with an SASE.
BROADCAST MONITORING SWL AND SCANNER NEWS
Nautel Ltd., one of the world's leading broadcast transmitter manufacturers,
has received orders for 21 additional medium wave AM transmitters and
associated equipment from India.
The orders for 100 kW and 200 kW transmitters join an earlier-announced order
of six 300 kW DRM transmitters from All India Radio as the world's largest
digital radio deployment to date.
All transmitters in the system will be configured for DRM30 transmission and
will be used in 27 locations throughout India.
The transition to digital broadcasting will allow AIR to use alternate
platforms such as podcasting, SMS, webcasting and mobile services, and offer
a 24-hour news channel along with other programming.
Additional services such as Interactive Text Transmission and disaster
warning are also planned.
(virtual-strategy.com)
THE QNEWS WORK BENCH - the nuts and volts report - Measure Twice cut Once.
DIY electronic kit founder Entrepreneur of the Year
ICQpodcast.com say that Limor Fried started selling her DIY electronic kits
at university and created a multi-million dollar business, "Adafruit."
Her success resulted in Limor being named 2012 Entrepreneur of the Year by
Entrepreneur magazine.
Limor started her company in her MIT dorm room by selling electronics kits to
her friends, making about $10 on each kit.
Soon she moved to New York and in October moved from a 2,000 square foot
office to a sprawling 12,000 square foot loft in Soho.
Entrepreneur says with $10,000 her parents had allocated for her tuition,
Fried bought a bulk quantity of parts and began assembling and selling her
kits, making about $10 on each unit.
As orders increased, she hired friends; before she knew it, she was designing
a new project every week around newfangled components like gyrometric sensors,
solar panels and thermal printers.
Entrepreneur of 2012: Limor Fried
www.entrepreneur.com/article/225213
http://www.adafruit.com/
WW SPECIAL INTEREST GROUPS --- FINAL FRONTIER
PACK YOUR HAM GEAR AND MOVE TO MARS
You might want to call this the ultimate one-way DXpedition.
While not specifically directed to the ham radio community, the Netherlands
based non-profit organization "Mars One", has released its basic
astronaut requirements setting the stage for a televised
global selection process that will begin later this year.
Amateur Radio Newsline's Norm Seeley, KI7UP, told us that Mars One
hopes to put the first settlers on the red planet by 2023.
The organization is not looking for scientists or former jet jockeys
as colonists. Rather anyone who is at least 18 years old can apply
to become a Mars pioneer.
Officials at Mars One say that the most important criteria
are intelligence, good mental and physical health and
dedication to the project. Those selected as its astronauts
will undergo eight years of training before launch.
Norbert Kraft is Mars One's chief medical director and a
former NASA researcher. He is quoted as saying that gone
are the days when bravery and the number of hours flying a
supersonic jet were the top criteria. Kraft says that now a
days space exploration planners are more concerned with how
well each astronaut works and lives with the others, in the
long journey from Earth to Mars and for a lifetime of
challenges that would lie ahead.
Mars One plans to launch a series of robotic cargo missions
between 2016 and 2021. These would be used to build a
habitable outpost ahead of the arrival of the first four
colonists in 2023. More settlers would then arrive every
two years thereafter. And less we forget to mention, this
will be a one way trip as there are no plans to return the
pioneers to Earth.
If you think you have the right stuff to help colonize Mars
you can learn more about the selection process at
www.thenextgiantleap.com
(Mars One, space.com, others via arnewsline.org)
RUSSIA TO LAUNCH MOON PROBE IN 2025
Russia appears to be getting back into the space-race.
According to published news reports, that nation will resume
its long dormant program to explore the moon by sending an
unmanned probe there in 2015.
The spacecraft will be called Luna-Glob which translates to
Moon-Globe in English. According to the Interfax news
agency, Roskosmos director Vladimir Popovkin said says the
exploration payload will be carried by the first rocket to
blast off from a new facility that Russia is building in its
far eastern Amur region.
Popovkin is the head of Russia's space agency. He and other
Russian space officials have said Luna-Glob would consist of
an orbital module and a probe that would land on the moon.
Once there it will radio back information about samples it
takes from the Lunar surface.
The last successful Russian launch of an unmanned probe to
the moon was in the 1970s. Unfortunately that nation has
suffered setbacks in its space program in recent years,
including unsuccessful satellite launches and the failure of
a Mars probe in 2011.
SA AMSAT ACCELERATING CUBESAT PROJECT
South Africa AMSAT has decided to accelerate its CubeSat project
and expects to have the first prototype version of transponder and
control system on the table for testing by end February.
As part of South Africa's contribution to the African
Resource and Environmental Management Constellation of
satellites, the South African National Space Agency or
SANSA, in collaboration with local industry and academic
experts, have been in discussions on the specifications for
the new satellite called Zed A-ARMC1. Specifically in
regard to its benefits for South Africa and the continent.
South Africa AMSAT is making a presentation to SANSA to have
an amateur payload included in the project.
Deon Coetzee, ZR1DE, last year demonstrated a locally
designed space frame. He is currently working on the second
prototype.
WARP DRiVE SCOTTY
The SSTL Space Blog reports on WARP DRiVE (Water Alcohol Resistojet Propulsion)
a novel new propulsion system that will help the STRaND-1 CubeSat to perform
manoeuvres
STRaND-1 is the first CubeSat to have two types of propulsion system.
As well as the WARP DRiVE, it will be equipped with a pulsed plasma thruster
system which will provide full-axis control with low power, mass and volume
requirements.
WARP DRiVE works by pushing water alcohol out of a tiny hole to produce thrust.
WW SPECIAL INTEREST GROUPS --- ILLW
ILLW heading toward a record
The International Lighthouse and Lightship Weekend continued to grow from
its first event held in August 1998 that attracted 158 stations in
40 countries.
Many of the amateur stations in the original activations at the historic
maritime structures have been with the fun event since, and joined over the
years by many hundreds more.
The sponsors, the Ayr Amateur Radio Group Scotland, thanks all entrants for
their loyalty, and looks for another record year as we move towards the magic
500 registrations.
The event is always held on the 3rd full weekend in August, aiming to promote
public awareness of the former navigation structures and give amateur radio
some good publicity.
To register or find out more about the next event on August the 18th and
19th visit the website www.illw.net
(vk3pc)
WW SPECIAL INTEREST GROUPS --- RESCUE RADIO
IARU REGION 3
Emergency Centre of Activity (CoA) frequencies
3.600, 7.110, 14.300, 18.160 and 21.360 MHz
Tasmanian Bush Fires operations
WICEN in Tasmania was finally stood down after 20 continuous days of
operation at the Incident Management Centre at Cambridge, near Hobart airport.
Operations have now been wound back.
WICEN was posted by the Tasmania Fire Services to mainly control the busy
80MHz radio traffic during massive fires.
Although those the major fires, which started on the 3rd January on the Tasman
Peninsula and in the Derwent Valley, are still active, one being classified
as contained and the other controlled.
The days serviced by WICEN and other southern Tasmanian radio amateurs varied
between 12 and 24 hours.
WICEN Tasmania (South) Operations Coordinator Rod Finlayson VK7TRF reports
that 24 radio amateurs contributed to the effort, totalling 666 hours at the
radio desk, plus time in logistical support keeping up the supply of operators
to the task.
Seven operators did in excess of 45 hours each, including three more than
60 hours and one working a total of almost 80 hours.
WICEN Tasmania (South) Secretary, Roger Nichols VK7ARN, said initially, there
were two operators on each of the two networks, but this was wound back to
one on each after ten days.
Roger VK7ARN said workloads gradually declined and, over the last few days,
consisted mainly of aircraft tracking, ensuring each aircraft's position
and situation was known at least half hourly.
This effort was enabled by having a core group of trained and experienced
operators who were able to guide others until sufficiently familiar with
the task.
A key learning issue was knowledge of the working of, and roles within, an
Incident Management Team made up of Fire, Parks and Forestry personnel.
Roger VK7ARN said, "This was particularly complex in this case because two
incidents were being managed within the one centre.
"All reports to date are of a high level of satisfaction by the 'powers that
be' for a job very well done.
"Though this particular campaign has ended, it's still a long way to go to
the end of the bushfire season in an even drier environment."
WICEN has at least now a larger pool of experience to draw on if the need
arises.
(Jim Linton VK3PC, Chairman, IARU Region 3, Disaster Communications Committee)
REWIND
The Kansas City Star are reporting on an almost 76 year old transmitter
'brought back from the grave'.
Larry Woodworth pulled a lever to begin transmitting and watched as his radio
roared to life this month.
First came a loud buzz as 2,300 volts rushed through its system.
Then he watched the mercury vapour in the vacuum tubes burn bright violet.
"This is W-9-bravo-sierra-papa," he said, giving the amateur radio's
call letters. "W9BSP. Olathe, Kansas, Ensor Museum."
For the first time in years, the radio that Marshall Ensor had built was
transmitting again.
Ensor, a long time Olathe dairy farmer, high school teacher & radio operator,
built the amateur radio in 1936 and 1937. He is remembered by some as a
pioneer for teaching others about amateur radio, and his old house, now the
Ensor Farmsite and Museum, is listed as a National Historic Site and on the
Register of Kansas Places for his contributions.
But the radio he transmitted on to teach others hadn't been used since 1972,
two years after his death. Since then Ensor's old radio equipment had fallen
into disrepair.
Work on repairing Ensor's old equipment began after Harry Krout, one of
Ensor's former students, visited the museum.
"He made an observation that the old equipment was a sorry mess to look at
because he remembered it from when it was all in new condition."
It took almost 150 hours over three years to get the radio in working
condition. They had to replace almost 90 per cent of its wiring and rebuild
many of its components. Plus, the radio had to have certain safety
modifications made, because "the level of safety concern in 1937 was quite a
bit different than it is today."
And now that Ensor's old radio is back in commission, Woodworth plans on
transmitting from it periodically during the months when the museum is open.
(theolathenews.com)
SOCIAL SCENE 2013
JAN 26 VK4 TARC Australia Day Long Weekend Family Radio Camp
26th to 28th at Girl Guides Campsite Bluewater.
JAN 27 VK3 MEET THE YLs OF AMATEUR RADIO Bundoora Park Rotunda #6
FEB 2 VK3 HOMEBREW & CONSTRUCTORS MEET 2PM 40G VICTORY BVD, ASHBURTON.
FEB 10 VK3 CENTRE VICTORIA RADIOFEST AT KYNETON.
FEB 23 VK Wyong Mini Contest University Wyong racecourse
FEB 24 VK WYONG FIELD DAY Wyong Racecourse
Hello Everyone,
Welcome from the members of the Central Coast Amateur Radio Club
I'm Rod, VK2LAX.
Well its just 4 weeks til the opening of the largest amateur
radio event in the Southern Hemisphere Wyong Field Day Sunday
24th February 2013
Gates open 6.30am - Traders & Exhibitors open 9am
This year there will be a free shuttle bus from Wyong station
Lucky gate prizes, Raffle, Lectures, Flea Market and so much
more! Entry $15 - under 17 admitted free
Wyong Field Day - Amateur Radio's big day out!
For more information - please got to the website
www.fieldday.org.au
MAR 24 VK7 "Meet the Voice" barbecue at Ross.
MAY 3- 5 VK4 Clairview AR Weekend details 04 296 32815
MAY 24-26 VK6 WIA AGM AND CONFERENCE IN PERTH
JUL 20 VK3 Gippsland Gate Radio & Electronics Club HamFest
AUG 17-18 WW ILLW
Oct 3- 7 VK4 North Queensland Amateur Radio Convention Charters Towers
NOV 2 VK4 Gold Coast ARS HamFest at Albert Waterways Hall.
NOV 3 VK5 HamFest Adelaide Hills Amateur Radio Society Goodwood.
NOV 15-17 VK3 Victorian National Parks Weekend
Nov 24 VK3 Southern Peninsula Amateur Radio Club: Rosebud RadioFest
This week's broadcast came from REAST in Hobart.
Frank VK7FINF
Angela VK7FPAA
Allan VK7KAJ
Scott VK7HVK
Warren VK7FEET
Graham VK7ZGK
Justin VK7TW
Submitting news items
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VK1WIA broadcasts, please email your item in text to nationalnews@wia.org.au
to submit audio read "how to submit items" in the weekly news page on
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item write in the 3rd person.
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